David Toomey - Kingdom of Play
Joining me for this episode is author and professor David Toomey. David and I chat about his latest book, Kingdom of Play. The book takes us on an entertaining tour of playful animals and the scientists who study them. We discuss the methods of play within all animals, wild and domestic. Also, we have a chat about David’s writing style and what makes him a critically acclaimed, multi-book writer. Have a listen and learn how to play more…like the animals. Enjoy!
Listen to Episode #206 Now:
BIO:
David Toomey is a Professor of English at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, where he teaches courses in writing and in the history of science. He is the author of several books of nonfiction, including Weird Life and The New Time Travelers. In his lifetime he has known and played with a great many animals, both human and non-human.
Transcript:
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Announcer: This is Pet Life Radio.
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Announcer: Let's talk pets.
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Tim Link: Welcome to Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
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Tim Link: This is your host, Tim Link, and I'm so excited that you're joining me today.
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Tim Link: We've got a really great guest today in a very interesting, intriguing book.
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Tim Link: We're talking to David Toomey today about his latest book, Kingdom of Play.
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Tim Link: It's all about the insights of animals, playtime, why does that mean, why do they do the things they do, and David will obviously tell us all the insights of that and also pick his brain a little bit about writing of this book as well as just writing in general, because he is definitely a scholar at that.
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Tim Link: So it's going to be a fun show.
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Tim Link: Always interested in animals that play and why they play, so it's going to be exciting.
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Tim Link: So everybody hang tight.
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Tim Link: We'll have a chat with David Toomey here in a moment.
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Tim Link: You're listening to Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
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<v SPEAKER_3>Let's talk pets on petliferadio.com.
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Tim Link: Welcome back to Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
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Tim Link: Join us now is author and he's also a professor of English at the University of Massachusetts, teaches creative writing and writing skills.
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Tim Link: So he definitely is a scholar and a teacher and a craftsman at his work.
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Tim Link: Of course, we're going to be chatting with David Toomey.
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Tim Link: David, welcome to the show.
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Tim Link: Yeah, we're excited to have you here.
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Tim Link: And I love the book and the concept and idea of the book, Kingdom of Play.
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Tim Link: And you know, on the cover, it talks about, you know, octopuses at play and bouncing balls and why do monkeys do belly flops and flips and mudsliding elephants?
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Tim Link: It sounds cartoonish, but this is the things that they do in life.
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Tim Link: So tell us a little bit about the book, Kingdom of Play.
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David Toomey: Sure.
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David Toomey: Well, I can tell you how I started and came upon this idea.
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David Toomey: It was accidental.
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David Toomey: I read around a lot of different stuff in different scientific journals.
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David Toomey: I happened across an article that said that scientists had no overarching theory of why animals play.
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David Toomey: They had ideas about maybe training for adult behavior or socialization, but there was no single theory that explained it all.
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David Toomey: And that came as a surprise to me.
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David Toomey: And I think it may be a surprise to a lot of people.
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David Toomey: I mean, I think, ask most people why a dog plays or spends so much time playing or a cat plays.
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David Toomey: And many are going to say it's training for adult behavior or it's socialization in social animals.
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David Toomey: But it turns out that that is the case sometimes, but it is not the case all the time.
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David Toomey: There are animals that have been long-term longitudinal studies with animals like a famous study of meerkats, those squirrel-like animals in South Africa, they're very social, they're very playful, but the ones that played more in their youth did not become more social.
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David Toomey: And animals, some animals that play more in youth aren't better at the adult behaviors, which are when they become adults.
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David Toomey: So those two ideas that are almost commonsensical, and I think widespread ideas, really don't answer all the questions.
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David Toomey: Animals seem to play for those reasons, yeah, but other reasons too.
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David Toomey: And the book explores all these reasons, and a lot of animals.
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David Toomey: Of course, I think we all know dogs play, and cats play, and a lot of mammals play.
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David Toomey: And I think we most of us know birds play.
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David Toomey: But I think it's a surprise to many that reptiles play sometimes, or seem to.
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David Toomey: Turtles seem to play, even fish play.
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David Toomey: And last spring, there was a study that showed that bees play.
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David Toomey: That is a fascinating test of, I think, it was 40 or 50 bees in a chamber, and given a choice to get to a food source, given a choice to walk straight through an empty chamber, or through a chamber that was filled with bee-sized wooden balls.
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David Toomey: And a lot of the bees went for the balls, and played with the balls, rolled the balls around for a while before they went to the food.
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David Toomey: Why did they do that?
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David Toomey: How does that help them as adults or socialize?
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David Toomey: It just doesn't seem to.
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David Toomey: And you might say, and a lot of people talk about this book and said to me, well, can't they just play because it's fun?
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David Toomey: Isn't that enough?
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David Toomey: And yeah, but evolution is harsh, and natural selection is harsh, and natural selection selects against wasteful activity.
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David Toomey: If you're playing, you're spending energy, that you could be doing something, well, more directly helpful to living or producing offspring.
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David Toomey: And playing seems beside the point.
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David Toomey: So evolutionary biologists who try to figure out why animals do what they do in terms of evolution, why evolution would want animals to play, that's why specifically evolution would want those bees to be rolling around the wooden balls.
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David Toomey: Evolutionary biologists think it's got to be more than mere fun.
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David Toomey: This isn't to say it isn't fun.
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David Toomey: I don't mean to sound like a spoilsport, but there's more going on there.
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David Toomey: And I think that's what's really interesting.
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Tim Link: Yeah, I think the key fact, you know, like you said, we know our domesticated animals fairly well.
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Tim Link: They want to play or at least they want to please us.
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Tim Link: So that's why we buy a plethora of toys and pool toys and for dogs and catnip toys for cats, et cetera.
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Tim Link: But it is definitely fascinating the fact that it seems like, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, virtually every animal out there, I mean, we're talking insects, reptiles, you mentioned, mammals, et cetera, they all play.
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Tim Link: And there is a reasoning behind that.
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Tim Link: So in the book, was it first of all surprising to you to find out how many, if not all, animals play?
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Tim Link: And then did it want you to dive into it even more, to say, okay, is this more just pure evolution, or is this a skill set to the bee who pushes the ball the furthest is the strongest, so mating purposes, et cetera?
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Tim Link: Did it make you want to dive into it even more to try to determine why this happens?
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David Toomey: Yeah, I mean, there were so many surprises as I went through the book.
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David Toomey: As I said, the first one was scientists don't have any overarching theory for all of it.
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David Toomey: And then there were all these other little surprises as I went further and further.
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David Toomey: Range of animals that play, octopuses play.
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David Toomey: Some fish do this weird kind of pole vaulting where they fish jump out of the water for a lot of reasons.
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David Toomey: And some scientists have a handle on a lot of them.
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David Toomey: Sometimes some fish seem to do it just because it's play.
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David Toomey: It seems to be fun.
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David Toomey: So yeah, that's a surprise.
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Tim Link: Through the play time, when we look at it from a human standpoint, we play because it's fun, but we also play because we're told that it's good exercise for us.
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Tim Link: So it's going to help our physical being.
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Tim Link: And then it's good mental stimulation.
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Tim Link: So it helps our mental mind.
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Tim Link: And then we also hear through training, whether we're talking about zoos, aquariums, sanctuaries, any type of training that they like to give enrichment, as they call it, little toys and balls and whatever it may be.
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Tim Link: Is it a combination?
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Tim Link: Do you feel it's a combination of that?
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Tim Link: Like we learn as a human that, yes, it's fun, but yet we're doing a lot of this because it helps us out physically and mentally, or is it just, you know, can it be just pure fun?
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David Toomey: I'm a kind of a have your cake and eat it too kind of guy.
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David Toomey: I think it can be pure fun.
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David Toomey: I think it can also be good for your development.
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David Toomey: And I think that's where a lot of these evolutionary biologists who study play come down.
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David Toomey: They don't, these don't need to be separate categories.
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Tim Link: That's it.
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Tim Link: Yeah, I love that.
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Tim Link: And I guess it goes back to obviously you're a historian and a scientist and you like to delve into that and are very skilled at that.
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Tim Link: But on the flip side for those novices like myself, I sort of take a look at it as, okay, what's the importance of knowing that?
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Tim Link: We know now they play and a whole plethora of animals, virtually every animal, if not all animals out there play.
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Tim Link: What value does it bring?
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Tim Link: I'm not saying it doesn't bring value, but what in your mind value does it bring for us to say, okay, we need to delve into this a little bit more and understand why this is happening?
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Tim Link: Because to me, the book completes the fact, just from a face value is fact that you found out more and more animals play, and you delved into every animal and how they went about playing.
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Tim Link: And that was satisfying as a reader for myself without knowing the ins and outs and whys of when it happens.
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David Toomey: Well, I think it does a lot of things.
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David Toomey: I mean, this knowledge does a lot of things for us in a purely selfish way with us humans being selfish.
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David Toomey: It does show us that play is pretty important to us, or should be important to us.
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David Toomey: We should take play seriously, to put it bluntly.
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David Toomey: I think this kind of knowledge is also important for understanding animals and non-human animals, I should say, because I include us in that big category.
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David Toomey: The more I read about animals and animal minds and their experiences, the more I've failed to see a real separation here.
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David Toomey: They're doing things we do.
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David Toomey: And if you look at a couple of squirrels in the backyard who are tussling and probably playing, you can't help but think they're having an experience of fun.
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David Toomey: And it's not so different from our experience of fun.
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David Toomey: And thinking of that, it just makes you just amazed at what non-human animals, who maybe we should be thinking more about what they do.
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Tim Link: Yeah, absolutely.
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Tim Link: I think you hit it spot on right there.
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Tim Link: And the thing that popped in my mind, you mentioned this squirrels tussling.
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Tim Link: Could it be more than play?
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Tim Link: Or is it just simply play?
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Tim Link: How many humans actually spend its time, like you did, investigating that, being interested in that, and just stop being long enough to see the squirrels tussling?
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Tim Link: That would be my first question.
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Tim Link: Then the second is, do you think squirrels stopped and wonder why we're doing the things that we do?
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David Toomey: That second question, that's a great question.
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David Toomey: I'm not sure I've ever thought about that.
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Tim Link: Because I would imagine, like you said, there's parallels in what we do.
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Tim Link: They do the things that we do, vice versa, I would be assuming.
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Tim Link: I know they think we're crazy at times and probably wonder why we're doing some of the things we're doing.
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Tim Link: But yeah, it makes me wonder, do they actually stop and think, well, what is that all about?
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Tim Link: Is that a play activity?
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Tim Link: And if so, is that something I should be doing?
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David Toomey: Yeah, I can't speak for squirrels.
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Tim Link: Come on, somebody's got to stand up for the squirrels.
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David Toomey: Let's change the animal here.
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David Toomey: I think dogs do.
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David Toomey: Dogs absolutely know when you're playing and not playing and when you stop playing.
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David Toomey: They know what humans look like when they're playing.
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David Toomey: And that does.
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David Toomey: I do talk for a bit about cross species play, which is something a lot of people really weren't expecting to happen either.
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Tim Link: Yeah, spin on that a little bit, because I thought that was fascinating as well.
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Tim Link: The fact that, like you said, dogs learn from us and we learn from them.
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Tim Link: And how's the cross species play time take effect?
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David Toomey: Yeah, it may be.
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David Toomey: It may be, I mean, the human history of dogs is fascinating.
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David Toomey: I mean, it's a 50,000 year history and we domesticated dogs, perhaps from wolves.
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David Toomey: Nobody is ever going to know.
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David Toomey: But in a funny way, they domesticated us too, because they make eye contact with them.
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David Toomey: Wolves don't, chimpanzees don't, but dogs do.
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David Toomey: And a dog looks at you and says, I'd like to get out of this room.
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David Toomey: Would you open the latch on the door and let me out?
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David Toomey: You're probably going to do it.
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David Toomey: And why are you going to do it?
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David Toomey: Because the dog has domesticated you.
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Tim Link: That's very good.
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Tim Link: I love that.
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Tim Link: The communication, you know, that nonverbal communication in particular.
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Tim Link: Well, is that because the domestication of it?
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Tim Link: Do you feel that that connection and us knowing what our dogs want without them saying a word as we know it, do you think it's because we have spent so much time with them that we've learned each other, not only just the visual parts of what our dogs do, but really connecting at that deep level.
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Tim Link: And perhaps if we spent more time with certain species, we'd be able to have that nonverbal connection and that domestication as well.
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David Toomey: Yeah, yeah, I think it is.
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David Toomey: I mean, and that's an interesting question.
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David Toomey: I mean, what could we, what people do do it with various animals, horses and humans connect very well.
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David Toomey: I don't know.
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David Toomey: I'm sure there are people with exotic pets.
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David Toomey: You see people with boa constrictors and all that.
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David Toomey: I don't know how far you could get with communicating with them.
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David Toomey: In other words, you might be just too far away from each other.
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Tim Link: And it's that fine line of, what's the scientific part of that?
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Tim Link: Their mental capacity, their brain size, et cetera.
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Tim Link: Is that a block for us to be able to connect at that deep level?
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Tim Link: Or is the fact that we just don't spend that much time where if we had a love affair for lizards, and we spent time, all of our free time with lizards, would we be able to connect with them and know when playtime is and vice versa?
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David Toomey: Sounds like another show for you.
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Tim Link: Or another book for you.
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:39.940
Tim Link: So there you go.
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Tim Link: A little tidbit.
00:14:40.860 --> 00:14:42.540
Tim Link: I'll only take 10% off the top.
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Tim Link: Don't worry about it.
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Tim Link: A little hint there.
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Tim Link: All right, everybody, we're going to take a quick commercial break, but I want to continue our conversation with David Toomey and his book, Kingdom of Play.
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Tim Link: You're listening to Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:53.540
Tim Link: See ya.
00:14:59.615 --> 00:15:05.555
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00:15:58.515 --> 00:16:06.555
Tim Link: PetLifeRadio.com Welcome back to Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
00:16:06.715 --> 00:16:10.975
Tim Link: Continue our conversation with author David Toomey and his book Kingdom of Play.
00:16:11.435 --> 00:16:16.235
Tim Link: Learning all about the play time of virtually, if not all, animals out there.
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Tim Link: So David, when you put together this book, and obviously you've written other books as well that really get into sort of the history and the scientific mind that animals are at play there, was there an aha moment you had or did you read an article or did you hear something or was there a light bulb went off and said, hey, I need to find out more about that and do a deep dive and write a book about it?
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David Toomey: Yeah, I mean, I think in each of my books that's happened.
00:16:40.635 --> 00:16:41.555
David Toomey: I'm a dilettante.
00:16:41.715 --> 00:16:49.935
David Toomey: I am somebody who is curious about a lot of things and I know a little bit about a lot of things, but not a lot about any one thing.
00:16:50.975 --> 00:16:53.795
David Toomey: That seems to be okay with the publisher.
00:16:54.055 --> 00:17:08.715
David Toomey: So yeah, in all my cases, the animal play, I just happened to cross an article and I thought, people have been doing a lot of research on this for years and years and years, but there's no popular book on it.
00:17:08.735 --> 00:17:11.135
David Toomey: There's no book for lay audiences on this.
00:17:11.475 --> 00:17:13.695
David Toomey: Who's not interested in animal play?
00:17:14.135 --> 00:17:18.735
David Toomey: And every time you tell something, everybody's got a story or more than one story.
00:17:18.775 --> 00:17:27.135
David Toomey: And this book, more than any other people, it's just lit up and then it's, let me tell you about what my dog did last weekend.
00:17:27.275 --> 00:17:32.215
David Toomey: Or I saw these otters and it was amazing.
00:17:33.355 --> 00:17:40.695
David Toomey: Yeah, it is a subject I think everybody's interested in and would like to know about more formally.
00:17:40.715 --> 00:17:42.755
Tim Link: Well, I think that's the fascinating thing.
00:17:42.775 --> 00:17:49.875
Tim Link: I always, when I talk to people I know, my clients, etc., they're always wanting to know more about their particular animals.
00:17:49.895 --> 00:17:54.215
Tim Link: You know, are they doing enough, not enough, what's play, what do they like, so on and so forth.
00:17:54.515 --> 00:18:06.635
Tim Link: For me, when I was looking through the book and you uncovering every animal out there likes to play, it's a great book for being able to not only read through the whole thing and learn more and really think about it, but also our favorites.
00:18:06.655 --> 00:18:15.035
Tim Link: We always have favorites that, you know, whether we're a dolphin fan or whether we're, you know, a chimpanzee fan, whatever otters is one of my favorites you'd mention.
00:18:15.515 --> 00:18:22.935
Tim Link: You can turn to a section, virtually any section of the book and learn about most of your favorites and why they do the things they do.
00:18:23.215 --> 00:18:25.615
Tim Link: So I thought the book did a great job of that.
00:18:26.155 --> 00:18:30.135
Tim Link: When you put together the book, how did you come to a stop point?
00:18:30.415 --> 00:18:52.095
Tim Link: More than just, okay, a publisher said 250 or 300 pages in the book, but how did you know that, okay, I've delved into this and given enough information that the reader would be fascinated, interested in it, learn enough about it without going so deep that we're delving into, in lack of better words, the deep end of the scientific research and the mindset of that?
00:18:52.355 --> 00:18:53.795
David Toomey: Yeah, good question.
00:18:53.835 --> 00:18:57.635
David Toomey: Well, I'm fortunate enough to have a brilliant editor.
00:18:58.035 --> 00:19:01.955
David Toomey: She told me in no uncertain terms, this is enough.
00:19:02.195 --> 00:19:07.415
David Toomey: You've got to move, you've ended the chapter here, you've done your job, let's move on to another chapter.
00:19:07.935 --> 00:19:10.655
David Toomey: So, it's her.
00:19:10.855 --> 00:19:28.555
Tim Link: Shout out to great editors because, you know, I find with a book, especially if you're really tuned into the story or the research or whatever it may be, it's very, you know, you're collecting, I'm assuming you're collecting, you know, reams of paper, as we'd say in the old days, of notes and research, so on and so forth.
00:19:28.575 --> 00:19:35.095
Tim Link: And you've got to consolidate that down where you're keeping the reader interested and intrigued and entertained.
00:19:35.555 --> 00:19:39.375
Tim Link: But there's a certain point, like your editor said, yeah, okay, you got to cut it off.
00:19:40.335 --> 00:19:44.675
David Toomey: Yeah, yeah, editors are just angels sent to earth.
00:19:45.335 --> 00:19:46.795
Tim Link: Yeah, to have editors for sure.
00:19:47.035 --> 00:19:51.395
Tim Link: Well, when everybody picks up a copy of the book, Kingdom of Play, let me retract on that.
00:19:51.855 --> 00:19:54.355
Tim Link: The book itself, writing it, putting it together.
00:19:54.375 --> 00:19:57.015
Tim Link: I know this was not an overnight project.
00:19:57.295 --> 00:19:59.975
Tim Link: So I can imagine the research that went into it.
00:20:00.215 --> 00:20:02.375
Tim Link: How did that process flow for you?
00:20:02.515 --> 00:20:05.095
Tim Link: And as a writer, what kind of writer are you?
00:20:05.115 --> 00:20:08.435
Tim Link: You know, are you a 530 in the morning type writer?
00:20:08.495 --> 00:20:10.375
Tim Link: Are you a 5,000 word a day?
00:20:10.635 --> 00:20:14.375
Tim Link: Do you write until your typing fingers are numb?
00:20:14.375 --> 00:20:15.995
Tim Link: How do you go about writing your craft?
00:20:16.255 --> 00:20:20.475
David Toomey: Yeah, my relationship with my writing is probably unhealthy.
00:20:23.175 --> 00:20:24.995
David Toomey: But that's probably true of a lot of writers.
00:20:25.335 --> 00:20:31.895
David Toomey: I wish I could be really disciplined, but I think I'm like a lot of writers, I'm best in the morning.
00:20:32.355 --> 00:20:41.615
David Toomey: So if I, there's a couple hours in the morning, maybe between eight and 10, and my mind is clear, I'm gonna produce something pretty good.
00:20:41.915 --> 00:20:46.735
David Toomey: So as long as I keep those hours, my book gets written.
00:20:47.155 --> 00:20:48.675
Tim Link: All right, that's good, that's good.
00:20:48.915 --> 00:20:51.235
Tim Link: Yeah, I found through the years, you know, there's no standard.
00:20:51.255 --> 00:20:55.055
Tim Link: You may have some similarities, these type of things, but it's all over the place.
00:20:55.515 --> 00:20:56.695
Tim Link: For me, it's deadlines.
00:20:56.715 --> 00:21:04.635
Tim Link: So cutting down the stories without babbling on, and then when deadlines come about, it's like, oh, it's not like how I learned in school.
00:21:04.735 --> 00:21:08.035
Tim Link: So as a professor, I'm sure you can appreciate that.
00:21:08.295 --> 00:21:12.875
Tim Link: David, when everybody picks up a copy of the book, Kingdom of Play, what do you hope they get from it?
00:21:12.875 --> 00:21:18.035
Tim Link: Is there a main takeaway or a thing that you're hoping they get from reading through the book?
00:21:18.395 --> 00:21:29.815
David Toomey: Well, I suppose one thing I hope to get is a greater appreciation for the natural world, or the animals that we share this planet with.
00:21:30.195 --> 00:21:34.095
David Toomey: Curiosity, I think a kind of a childlike curiosity.
00:21:34.355 --> 00:21:36.515
David Toomey: I hope might be awakened in some people.
00:21:36.935 --> 00:21:48.975
David Toomey: And it would be nice, it's a pleasant thought to think that a younger person might be inspired to begin a career in animal behavior, or the study of some natural world.
00:21:49.455 --> 00:21:50.695
Tim Link: I like that, I like that.
00:21:50.795 --> 00:21:55.615
Tim Link: Yeah, storm off young and say, hey, the animals play, you play, come on, here you go, you got a career.
00:21:56.275 --> 00:22:00.515
Tim Link: Well, I think you did a great job with the book as always, and you definitely accomplished that.
00:22:00.575 --> 00:22:02.595
Tim Link: So big kudos once again.
00:22:02.615 --> 00:22:08.595
Tim Link: Everybody pick up a copy of the book, learn about why our animals play, learn about what every animal does out there.
00:22:08.615 --> 00:22:11.995
Tim Link: Of course, the name of the book is Kingdom of Play by David Toomey.
00:22:12.275 --> 00:22:18.035
Tim Link: David, congratulations again on a great book, and I look forward to chatting with you somewhere down the road on the next book.
00:22:19.035 --> 00:22:19.655
Tim Link: I enjoyed it.
00:22:19.775 --> 00:22:20.355
Tim Link: All right.
00:22:20.635 --> 00:22:22.175
Tim Link: Well, we're coming to the end of the show today.
00:22:22.195 --> 00:22:25.695
Tim Link: I want to thank everyone for listening to Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
00:22:25.715 --> 00:22:28.875
Tim Link: I want to thank the producers and sponsors for making this show possible.
00:22:28.895 --> 00:22:34.035
Tim Link: If you have any questions, comments, ideas for the show or people you want to hear from most, drop us a line.
00:22:34.055 --> 00:22:41.875
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00:22:41.975 --> 00:22:45.195
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00:22:45.255 --> 00:22:48.575
Tim Link: It's a cornucopia of fun, animal, fun entertainment.
00:22:51.095 --> 00:22:54.235
Tim Link: So until next time, write a great story about the animals of your life.
00:22:54.255 --> 00:22:58.215
Tim Link: And who knows, you may be the next guest on Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
00:22:58.335 --> 00:22:59.655
Tim Link: Everybody have a great day.
00:23:00.575 --> 00:23:06.595
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