Freedom of Choice
How can we give animals who share our lives a greater sense of freedom of choice? This essential ingredient is so important to the well-being of animals. In this episode we explore the major five freedoms that animals need for their well-being. And we also explore the emotional needs for freedom of choice so that we can help animals who share our lives a sense of freedom which leads to greater balance of emotional states. There are many small things we can do to make a big impact on the quality of life for animals.
Listen to Episode #27 Now:
Transcript:
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<Announcer> This is Pet Life Radio.
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<Announcer> Let's talk pets.
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<Announcer> Welcome to The Human-Animal Connection show, where we believe we can communicate with all animals.
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<Announcer> Join us as we explore the 33 principles and healing methods of The Human-Animal Connection.
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<Announcer> As animal lovers, we know that you share our commitment to making the world a kinder place for all creatures.
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<Announcer> Together, let's embrace the transformative healing power of The Human-Animal Connection.
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<Michael Overlie> Hi, everybody.
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<Michael Overlie> Welcome to The Human-Animal Connection show.
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<Michael Overlie> I'm your most fortunate host, Michael Overlie, and with amazing Genie Joseph to talk about freedom.
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<Michael Overlie> Genie.
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<Genie Joseph> Yeah, I love freedom.
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<Genie Joseph> I love freedom.
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<Genie Joseph> It is such an important thing for humans.
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<Genie Joseph> People died fighting for it.
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<Genie Joseph> It's such an important concept in life.
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<Genie Joseph> And when we have freedom of choice, we generally do better than when we don't have freedom of choice.
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<Genie Joseph> And it's the same thing with animals.
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<Genie Joseph> So today, we're talking about how animals that are living with us, domestic animals, can have freedom of choice.
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<Genie Joseph> And of course, we won't get started with the farm animals who have no freedom of choice.
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<Genie Joseph> And that's a very serious issue.
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<Genie Joseph> But today, we're just going to talk about the animals that share our lives because cats, dogs, horses, animals that are living in our human lifestyle are kind of at the mercy of our choices, what we feed them, when we go to sleep, when we wake up, when we walk, when we go out, etc.
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<Genie Joseph> And so they can get what I call chooser burnout, which is that they don't feel like they have choices, and then they stop making choices, and then they get kind of disconnected, and then you start seeing some bad behavior.
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<Genie Joseph> So today is all about how can we simulate, or not really simulate, but to how we can create moments of freedom of choice.
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<Genie Joseph> So for example, if you're out on a walk, it isn't, you know, maybe there's some walks that you're leading, but there are other walks where the dog gets to lead, and they get to choose, are we going left or right?
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<Genie Joseph> Are we going forward or backward?
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<Genie Joseph> Are we going to turn around here?
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<Genie Joseph> Are we going to stop there?
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<Genie Joseph> Are we going to take some time to sniff?
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<Genie Joseph> If they get to make a few choices on the walk, and it doesn't have to be a million choices, it can be a few choices on the walk, that walk is so much more valuable, for them and their nervous system, than when we make all of the choices for them, in terms of pace and direction and start and stop, and when we do this, and when we interact with others and when we don't.
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<Genie Joseph> So if we're paying attention to them and letting them lead at least some portion of the walk, that is really valuable.
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<Genie Joseph> And when we're at home, we can do a little game where we take two treats, you know, put it behind our back, and then we present our fist with two treats in each hand, and we present them to the dog.
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<Genie Joseph> And this is not a guessing game.
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<Genie Joseph> That's another game, which is also fun.
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<Genie Joseph> But this one is not a guessing game.
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<Genie Joseph> This one, they get to choose, do they want the right one or the left one first?
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<Genie Joseph> They're going to get both, but they get to choose which one they get first.
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<Genie Joseph> And that may seem like, oh, that is so simple.
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<Genie Joseph> How could that be useful?
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<Genie Joseph> But it's actually good for the brain because they're going to go sniff, sniff, sniff.
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<Genie Joseph> They're probably going to check nd buy both.
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<Genie Joseph> They're going to make a choice for them making a choice, choosing which one they get.
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<Genie Joseph> And then they get the second one.
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<Genie Joseph> So it's an all positive, all reward game.
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<Genie Joseph> There's no losing in the game.
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<Genie Joseph> There's no guessing.
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<Genie Joseph> They don't lose anything.
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<Genie Joseph> This is just a simple example of how you can create some choices.
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<Genie Joseph> And there are a lot of little games that you can play like that around the house that where they get to make a choice, this or that, this toy or that toy, this game or that game, whatever, is kind of easy and comfortable in your world to give them a sense of choice and to pay attention to what they choose.
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<Michael Overlie> I love that so much.
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<Michael Overlie> But the walk is such a big deal, right?
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<Michael Overlie> We tend to see it as a chore.
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<Michael Overlie> I have to get my dog out.
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<Michael Overlie> What if it could be enriching for both of you?
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<Genie Joseph> Exactly.
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<Michael Overlie> Yeah, we do command free walks.
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<Michael Overlie> I really, I won't correct her.
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<Michael Overlie> I won't say left, right, whatever.
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<Michael Overlie> And I just let her do her thing.
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<Michael Overlie> And I'll see if I can guide a little bit.
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<Michael Overlie> Actually, I have to go home at some point.
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<Genie Joseph> Right.
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<Michael Overlie> But it's really interesting in how calm she gets when no one's barking at her.
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<Genie Joseph> Right, exactly.
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<Genie Joseph> It's just like, it's such a beautiful thing.
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<Genie Joseph> I mean, when we want to punish people in our society, we put them in prison, we take away choices.
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<Genie Joseph> And the worst thing we can do to them is put them in solitary where they have zero choices.
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<Genie Joseph> So this is something that we want to think about, how important it is for a dog to feel a sense of choice.
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<Genie Joseph> And it restores their will, their sense of self, if they can have some parts of the day where they get to make choices.
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<Genie Joseph> And they're making lots of choices if they're living in a healthy environment, like I'm going to sleep here, I'm going to walk here, I'm going to go engage now.
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<Genie Joseph> But we want to make as many more opportunities as we can, like you said, on the walk.
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<Genie Joseph> And maybe not every walk is one of these kinds of walks, but could one once a week, once a day be that walk where they get to make all the choices.
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<Genie Joseph> And then there are other times where you can work on training exercises is fine, where we get to tell them what it is that we would like and make a request rather than a command, but make a request and give them a choice to comply, and they comply and they get a treat.
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<Genie Joseph> So that's really good too.
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<Genie Joseph> So it's not like there's only one way that we're going to interact, but thinking about freedom of choice, does my dog have freedom of choice?
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<Genie Joseph> And maybe your dog has a lot or a little.
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<Genie Joseph> Some dogs are sleeping in a crate all night or forced to be in a crate all day, or they have very little choice.
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<Genie Joseph> And then the minute they get choice, they're going to kind of explode a little because they've been choice deprived.
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<Genie Joseph> So it's basically, I think, a right of beingness, a sacred right to have at least some autonomy, some choices that the dog can make.
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<Genie Joseph> And when I take home, sometimes I'll take home a shelter dog, a rescue dog, just for an afternoon or something to give them a little break from the shelter.
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<Genie Joseph> And one of the things that I really focus on, especially if they're shy and traumatized, just let them make choices.
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<Genie Joseph> I'll let them go out in the yard.
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<Genie Joseph> Do they want to sit?
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<Genie Joseph> Do they want to walk?
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<Genie Joseph> Do they want to run?
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<Genie Joseph> Do they want to be in the sun or the shade?
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<Genie Joseph> Do they want to drink water?
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<Genie Joseph> Do they want to engage with me?
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<Genie Joseph> Do they want to chase the birds?
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<Genie Joseph> What do they want to do?
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<Genie Joseph> And just watching them make choices, you can see their spirit come back online.
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<Genie Joseph> Because of course, in the shelter environment, they don't get many choices at all.
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<Genie Joseph> They are walking when the time is to walk, and they eat when it's the time to eat, and they get just the moment of interaction when the volunteer can walk them.
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<Genie Joseph> They get almost no choices.
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<Genie Joseph> They are at the mercy of the sense that are all around them, the sights that are all around them, the smells, tastes, sounds, all of that is bombarding their senses, and they can't do anything about it.
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<Genie Joseph> They can't get away from the senses, the invasion of the senses that happens in a shelter environment.
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<Genie Joseph> And I'm not blaming shelters, I'm just saying that it's a tough gig for a dog.
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<Genie Joseph> Thank God for shelters, or there'd be a lot of dead dogs on the street.
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<Genie Joseph> But we need to recognize that they are being choice deprived.
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<Genie Joseph> And when I teach at the shelters, I encourage volunteers, I say, can you give the dog just some choice time on that walk?
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<Genie Joseph> Can they choose left or right, when to stop, what pace to go at, or whatever the person can manage.
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<Genie Joseph> It will really go a long way to rebalancing that dog's sense of autonomy and dignity.
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<Michael Overlie> It's not just dogs, right?
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<Michael Overlie> It's other animals that share our homes, and sometimes animals that don't share our homes.
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<Genie Joseph> Right, yeah.
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<Genie Joseph> I mean, even when we look at zoos, if they're in a very small, confined area, then their choices are limited.
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<Genie Joseph> And these wild, big animals are not meant to be in that kind of situation.
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<Genie Joseph> So the more zoos can give some freedom of choice, more space, more choices what to eat, so that's not just feeding them at the time of the feeding schedule, but that there's trees that they can munch on or something, there's some more choices.
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<Genie Joseph> This is going to go a long way to helping them feel better.
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<Genie Joseph> And many animals in many zoos are actually on Prozac because they are so disturbed by the circumstances that they're in.
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<Genie Joseph> And a lot of people don't realize that there are a lot of zoos, you know, attempted escapes that are not all successful, but there's a lot more escapes than people realize.
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<Genie Joseph> And sometimes these animals are euthanized if they start escaping too much because they feel they can't control them.
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<Genie Joseph> And it's because the animals have no choice.
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<Genie Joseph> They don't have a choice about being there, and then they have no choice within their day about what they're going to do or who's going to interact with them or whatever.
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<Genie Joseph> So it's just something to think about.
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<Genie Joseph> You know, it's not something to feel guilty about, but it is something to just think about.
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<Genie Joseph> How can I play more choice games where the dog gets to choose what game we play with or what treat I get first or or how long we're going to do something or anything like that.
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<Genie Joseph> Anytime they're making a choice, they are helping their nervous system and you are helping the relationship.
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<Michael Overlie> I mean, we all want that, right?
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<Michael Overlie> Nobody wants to get stuck in a cubicle for 12 hours straight.
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<Michael Overlie> You have to be able to get up and go to the bathroom.
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<Michael Overlie> And we take these things for granted.
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<Michael Overlie> And then we keep these animals caged in captivity, whatever the situation.
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<Michael Overlie> Even zoos and wild animal parks, they have a little more room, but it's still it's not natural for them.
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<Genie Joseph> Not that amount of room that they need to thrive and be healthy.
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<Genie Joseph> And I want to tell you about an organization called Animals Asia, and they have been rescuing moon bears because there has been a superstition for a very long time in certain Asian countries that bear bile leads to male virility in humans.
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<Genie Joseph> And so they mine their bile, they're on a constant drip where they get their bile.
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<Genie Joseph> And in order to do this, they have to be restrained 24-7.
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<Genie Joseph> So they are in a cage where they can't move.
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<Genie Joseph> They never get to see the sun or be on the grass or have any medical care or anything like this.
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<Genie Joseph> And this group has done a tremendous amount to make public awareness, and they put a lot of pressure on the Vietnamese government, and they're making tremendous progress with it.
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<Genie Joseph> But they have rescued, I think, about 700 of these moon bears.
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<Genie Joseph> And these are really sweet little cuddly things.
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<Genie Joseph> And what's so exciting about them is that once they get, you know, first they come to the facility, the sanctuary, and they get medical treatment, and they're in isolation at first.
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<Genie Joseph> But once they are, you know, healthy, they begin to introduce them to the other moon bears.
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<Genie Joseph> And it's so cute.
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<Genie Joseph> You can see videos online of these.
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<Genie Joseph> They call them moon bears because they have a little crescent moon around their neck.
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<Genie Joseph> You know, they're kind of brown or black, and they have this yellow crescent moon.
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<Genie Joseph> They're very cute.
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<Genie Joseph> And to see them come alive, you know, to recognize that they have choices, and they have this big yard that they play in where they can find their own food.
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<Genie Joseph> I mean, they get fed regularly, but they also hide treats for them to find.
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<Genie Joseph> And so they forage, and they begin to do normal behaviors, and they begin to interact with others and play in the water and splash around like little kids.
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<Genie Joseph> And it's just beautiful to see that these bears who've been basically in cages their entire life, you know, never moved, learning to use their muscles again, learning to interact, learning to make choices, and feeling the taste of freedom for the first time.
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<Genie Joseph> So it's a beautiful organization if you'd like to support one of the organizations I support.
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<Genie Joseph> So it just really moves me to see animals that have been spent their whole life in captivity can often come back with the right love and care and structure to a somewhat normal life, not completely normal, you know, they still have a little bit of PTSD.
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<Genie Joseph> But it's amazing how much being with their own kind and playing and making choices, having some choices can help that process heal.
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<Genie Joseph> And when we look at, you know, people in the military, one of the challenges is that they've been in a situation where they had relatively few choices.
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<Genie Joseph> They're told what to wear, when to eat, when to sleep, when they can bathe, all these, you know, time about active duty here.
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<Genie Joseph> And then what happens is they get chooser burnout.
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<Genie Joseph> So then they go back to Civilian Society.
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<Genie Joseph> And remember that movie Hurt Locker where he has to go to the grocery store and his wife says, can you go get the breakfast cereal thinking it's like a nothing task?
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<Genie Joseph> Because for her, it's a nothing task.
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<Genie Joseph> But for him, being faced with like 100 boxes of cereal when he's been on military diet, it's just like overwhelming.
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<Genie Joseph> It's meaningless to look at all those boxes.
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<Genie Joseph> He doesn't know which one to choose, and the task is overwhelming, and he freaks out and can't get the cereal.
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<Genie Joseph> And she goes, what's wrong with you?
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<Genie Joseph> Why can't you do a simple task and help me out?
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<Genie Joseph> Don't you love me?
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<Genie Joseph> And it's really that he has chooser burnout.
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<Genie Joseph> The muscle has been misused or not used enough.
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<Genie Joseph> Or if a person has been also in the military, where they've had to make a lot of life and death choices, you can get chooser burnout.
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<Genie Joseph> So you can get it from having to make too many choices or having to make too little either way, like either overstimulated or understimulated results in what I call chooser burnout.
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<Genie Joseph> That's my term for it.
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<Genie Joseph> And the way we restore it is by gently making conscious choices that don't have a lot of significance.
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<Genie Joseph> Do I want to wear the blue shirt today or the red shirt today?
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<Genie Joseph> It's not life and death.
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<Genie Joseph> It's okay if I make the wrong choice.
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<Genie Joseph> And just getting used to what does it feel like when I think about wearing the blue shirt?
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<Genie Joseph> What does it feel like when I think about wearing the red shirt and just connecting the sensation of, okay, well, the blue shirt feels right today.
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<Genie Joseph> I need more cooling energy or I need more dynamic energy.
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<Genie Joseph> I'm going to wear the red shirt.
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<Genie Joseph> Just paying attention to how the choice feels invites the chooser to go, okay, it's safe to choose because somebody's going to listen to me.
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<Genie Joseph> Because it's just like a child.
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<Genie Joseph> If you don't pay attention to their requests, they'll stop making them.
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<Genie Joseph> Same thing with the dog.
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<Genie Joseph> If the dog is communicating with you in terms of body language or whatever else and you're not paying attention, they'll stop communicating.
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<Genie Joseph> They'll stop telling you because they're figuring, well, why should I?
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<Genie Joseph> They're not listening.
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<Michael Overlie> Yeah, absolutely.
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<Michael Overlie> When that translates right to humans, if we don't feel safe, we understand how our dog can behave a certain way now.
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<Michael Overlie> Well, some of us do.
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<Michael Overlie> But when we don't feel safe, we're not going to make great decisions for ourselves either.
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<Genie Joseph> That's right.
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<Michael Overlie> So we're going to shy away from things.
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<Michael Overlie> We're going to do the wrong things.
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<Genie Joseph> And that's what happens to people with PTSD.
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<Genie Joseph> They come back from combat situations with chooser burnout, and they'll either do one of two things.
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<Genie Joseph> They'll either be unable to make a decision, like everything is just too overwhelming, like the cereal box, I'm just going to get out of here.
00:14:15.140 --> 00:14:22.580
<Genie Joseph> Or they make impulsive decisions, meaning that it's so uncomfortable to have to make a choice that they'll just make the fastest, easiest one, not necessarily the best one.
00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:29.200
<Genie Joseph> So it's the ability to tolerate the process of choosing, to be able to just breathe and say, okay, so what feels good?
00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:36.440
<Genie Joseph> And this is what, when we see animals beginning to make choices, we see them coming back into a much healthier state very quickly.
00:14:36.460 --> 00:14:41.580
<Genie Joseph> It really, it's amazing to see what even a half hour of freedom of choice can do for them.
00:14:41.920 --> 00:14:43.440
<Michael Overlie> And we should train people this way too.
00:14:43.780 --> 00:14:44.120
<Genie Joseph> Yeah.
00:14:46.700 --> 00:14:49.120
<Michael Overlie> This would be a great place to take a break.
00:14:50.260 --> 00:14:51.860
<Michael Overlie> Okay, we'll see you folks in a minute.
00:14:56.980 --> 00:15:01.400
<Announcer> Hey, friends, if you like what you're hearing and want to learn more, check out Dr.
00:15:01.420 --> 00:15:08.220
<Announcer> Joseph's book The Human-Animal Connection, Deepening Relationships with Animals and Ourselves.
00:15:08.940 --> 00:15:15.600
<Announcer> Or visit the website thehumananimalconnection.org to book an online consultation.
00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:17.960
<Announcer> Thank you for loving animals.
00:15:19.060 --> 00:15:19.480
<Announcer> We'll go back to the show.
00:15:21.660 --> 00:15:24.800
<Announcer> Let's Talk Pets on PetLifeRadio.com.
00:15:30.773 --> 00:15:31.993
<Michael Overlie> Hey, folks, welcome back.
00:15:32.353 --> 00:15:37.373
<Michael Overlie> Excited to talk about more freedom, and you have some amazing examples for us.
00:15:37.673 --> 00:15:39.853
<Genie Joseph> I really do, but let me just start.
00:15:39.933 --> 00:15:45.193
<Genie Joseph> I want to explain, in the UK, in the United Kingdom, they created something called the Five Freedoms.
00:15:45.213 --> 00:15:49.333
<Genie Joseph> And this has been accepted by shelter veterinarians.
00:15:49.353 --> 00:15:50.853
<Genie Joseph> It's kind of like the gold standard.
00:15:51.133 --> 00:15:54.273
<Genie Joseph> And I want to kind of go through them because they're really important to think about.
00:15:54.673 --> 00:15:56.833
<Genie Joseph> So the first is freedom from hunger and thirst.
00:15:56.853 --> 00:16:05.573
<Genie Joseph> And that's why I say, like, it's real easy to say, oh, shelters are horrible places, but then we start to realize, well, there are some things they're doing really well, okay?
00:16:05.593 --> 00:16:08.853
<Genie Joseph> So in most shelters, there is freedom from hunger and thirst.
00:16:08.873 --> 00:16:14.013
<Genie Joseph> They're getting fresh food every day or some kind of food, at least dog food, I shouldn't say fresh.
00:16:14.033 --> 00:16:17.153
<Genie Joseph> They're getting daily dog food and they are getting their water.
00:16:17.693 --> 00:16:20.133
<Genie Joseph> And the next one is freedom from discomfort.
00:16:20.153 --> 00:16:30.433
<Genie Joseph> So that has to do with, you know, like, let's say being exposed to weather conditions or bullying dogs or how in Arizona, we have javelina, which are wild boar.
00:16:30.953 --> 00:16:39.153
<Genie Joseph> And, you know, so they are free from those kinds of predators that might be if they were running wild on the streets or cars and so on.
00:16:39.793 --> 00:16:41.933
<Genie Joseph> Freedom from pain, injury or disease.
00:16:41.953 --> 00:16:45.613
<Genie Joseph> So hopefully most shelters have a veterinary staff and are paying attention.
00:16:46.073 --> 00:16:48.453
<Genie Joseph> And freedom to express normal behavior.
00:16:48.473 --> 00:16:51.053
<Genie Joseph> Now, that's one that's not going as well as it could.
00:16:51.073 --> 00:16:52.533
<Genie Joseph> And we're going to talk about that in the shelter.
00:16:52.533 --> 00:17:00.613
<Genie Joseph> That's one of the things that we need to get shelters to move towards is more freedom to express normal behavior and then freedom from fear and distress.
00:17:00.633 --> 00:17:05.753
<Genie Joseph> So hopefully there's no one there that's terrifying, but often there are dogs that are kind of bullies or scary.
00:17:05.773 --> 00:17:12.153
<Genie Joseph> Or, you know, if a dog comes in and they're not afraid of dogs, by the time they leave, they will be or often are, you know.
00:17:12.493 --> 00:17:14.773
<Genie Joseph> So there's a lot of deterioration that goes on.
00:17:15.173 --> 00:17:22.213
<Genie Joseph> If a dog spends more than two weeks, is sort of the traditional thinking is that more than two weeks in a shelter, you're going to start to see deterioration.
00:17:22.233 --> 00:17:24.213
<Genie Joseph> That's pretty much the accepted concept.
00:17:24.233 --> 00:17:28.673
<Genie Joseph> But of course, in shelters, many dogs now are there a lot longer than two weeks.
00:17:28.693 --> 00:17:34.653
<Genie Joseph> So I mean, it's wonderful that we're making progress with not euthanizing just because they've been there two weeks.
00:17:34.673 --> 00:17:39.033
<Genie Joseph> But the fact is, many dogs have been in the shelter over a year.
00:17:39.273 --> 00:17:41.913
<Genie Joseph> So it's a tough situation.
00:17:42.573 --> 00:17:47.153
<Genie Joseph> So those are the five freedoms that hopefully every shelter is doing or working towards doing.
00:17:47.673 --> 00:17:53.373
<Genie Joseph> And in The Human-Animal Connection, we talk about three domains that we think are really important.
00:17:53.393 --> 00:17:57.133
<Genie Joseph> So we look at the first realm, which is physical conditions.
00:17:57.153 --> 00:18:08.853
<Genie Joseph> So that's kind of what the shelters are doing their best with, with the resources that they have to make the physical conditions at least to sustain life, not necessarily to thrive, but to sustain life.
00:18:09.073 --> 00:18:10.593
<Genie Joseph> So they are doing that.
00:18:10.893 --> 00:18:13.393
<Genie Joseph> The natural behaviors, that's what the volunteers do.
00:18:13.413 --> 00:18:22.033
<Genie Joseph> They kind of help take the dog out, give him a little bit of love, take him for a walk, give him a treat, give them a little bit of training, some positive attention.
00:18:22.353 --> 00:18:24.113
<Genie Joseph> So that's really, really important.
00:18:24.613 --> 00:18:30.393
<Genie Joseph> And the third domain is what we talk about in The Human-Animal Connection, which is being very, very important.
00:18:30.753 --> 00:18:36.553
<Genie Joseph> And that's called in the sciences, effective states, meaning AFFECTIVE.
00:18:36.953 --> 00:18:41.193
<Genie Joseph> So that is the fancy term for emotional states, how the animal is feeling.
00:18:41.493 --> 00:18:51.473
<Genie Joseph> And from the point of view of The Human-Animal Connection, when we volunteer at the shelter, of course, we're doing all the things that have to be done in terms of walking and taking good care of their physicality.
00:18:51.493 --> 00:18:58.853
<Genie Joseph> But the next thing that we're concerned with is making sure that we're attending as best we can to the dog's emotional state.
00:18:59.273 --> 00:19:04.873
<Genie Joseph> So if we see a dog that's understimulated, we want to help that dog get a little more engaged with life.
00:19:04.993 --> 00:19:08.233
<Genie Joseph> If we see a dog that's overstimulated, we want to help them get calm.
00:19:08.253 --> 00:19:12.353
<Genie Joseph> Actually, we want to help all dogs get calm because getting calm helps balance.
00:19:12.353 --> 00:19:19.753
<Genie Joseph> But we're really looking to see, does this dog need more stimulation or less stimulation, more calm or more engagement, more play?
00:19:20.213 --> 00:19:27.913
<Genie Joseph> And we do our best to attend to whatever it is that we recognize the dog needs in emotional terms.
00:19:28.353 --> 00:19:31.093
<Genie Joseph> Now, in a shelter environment, there's not enough staff.
00:19:31.113 --> 00:19:34.053
<Genie Joseph> They don't have an emotional person on staff.
00:19:34.073 --> 00:19:34.633
<Genie Joseph> You know what I mean?
00:19:34.993 --> 00:19:38.313
<Genie Joseph> They have behavior people in some cases, and they have play.
00:19:38.613 --> 00:19:40.253
<Genie Joseph> In our shelter, we're very fortunate.
00:19:40.273 --> 00:19:45.073
<Genie Joseph> We have a Dogs Playing for Life program, which means that the dogs get out to play with each other.
00:19:45.693 --> 00:19:47.853
<Genie Joseph> So that's tremendously valuable.
00:19:48.953 --> 00:19:59.113
<Genie Joseph> The one thing that I would add, if I could wave my magic wand, would be that all shelters would have an emotion team, a team that is paying attention to what does that dog need, a love team.
00:19:59.133 --> 00:20:00.153
<Genie Joseph> Do they need more cuddling?
00:20:00.173 --> 00:20:01.733
<Genie Joseph> Do they need more quiet?
00:20:01.753 --> 00:20:02.933
<Genie Joseph> Do they need more play?
00:20:02.953 --> 00:20:04.493
<Genie Joseph> Do they need more cuddles?
00:20:04.513 --> 00:20:08.993
<Genie Joseph> What is it that they need to help them be in a more balanced state?
00:20:09.013 --> 00:20:11.093
<Genie Joseph> Because that is what's going to get them adopted.
00:20:11.633 --> 00:20:14.413
<Genie Joseph> Because when people see a balanced dog, they can't resist.
00:20:14.793 --> 00:20:22.973
<Genie Joseph> When they see a scared dog or an anxious dog or possibly a slightly aggressive dog, they're going to walk the other direction as fast as you can blink.
00:20:23.453 --> 00:20:31.393
<Genie Joseph> But when they see a dog that's patient and calm and looks you in the eye and wants to connect, it's like it's very hard to walk past that cage.
00:20:32.853 --> 00:20:33.593
<Michael Overlie> That's amazing.
00:20:33.953 --> 00:20:41.433
<Michael Overlie> Yeah, God, it would be great if we could have emotional teams associated with all these shoulders, even maybe a group that could be called in as a specialty.
00:20:41.853 --> 00:20:42.433
<Genie Joseph> Exactly.
00:20:42.453 --> 00:20:44.473
<Genie Joseph> And people do their best.
00:20:44.493 --> 00:20:50.253
<Genie Joseph> There are different groups doing different things, and some people come in and do reiki, which is wonderful, the energy healing.
00:20:50.753 --> 00:20:51.673
<Genie Joseph> And that's all good.
00:20:51.693 --> 00:20:53.273
<Genie Joseph> Anything that people are doing is a good thing.
00:20:53.553 --> 00:20:55.913
<Genie Joseph> But a lot of people don't really understand.
00:20:56.793 --> 00:21:04.753
<Genie Joseph> We have 33 principles in The Human-Animal Connection, and they all attend to the affective states, the emotional states, the emotional needs of animals.
00:21:05.133 --> 00:21:09.293
<Genie Joseph> And starting from recognizing that they have opinions, that they have wants and needs and desires.
00:21:09.733 --> 00:21:15.033
<Genie Joseph> And to begin to attend to that as best we can doesn't mean that they're going to get everything that they want all the time.
00:21:15.473 --> 00:21:23.053
<Genie Joseph> But as best as we can, we say, oh, you know, this dog needs some contact and some love, or this dog needs some trust, or this dog needs some quiet.
00:21:23.413 --> 00:21:35.733
<Genie Joseph> I have one dog where we had a room where we could go into, do some healing work, and I would take this big old pity who was raised to be a fighting dog and really a ferocious, just one of these big tank dogs.
00:21:36.093 --> 00:21:42.033
<Genie Joseph> But he was so scared, and we would go into the room, and all he wanted to do was go to sleep.
00:21:42.533 --> 00:21:50.313
<Genie Joseph> And it was so important to let him do that, because in the shelter environment with all the barking, they're not getting a chance to go into the deep REM sleep.
00:21:50.453 --> 00:21:58.613
<Genie Joseph> You know, they're always getting interrupted, and dogs actually will nap a lot if they don't have other things to do, which is a good thing, actually.
00:21:58.633 --> 00:22:02.993
<Genie Joseph> You know, we don't want them to nap all the time, but we definitely want them to have nap time.
00:22:03.053 --> 00:22:05.793
<Genie Joseph> They need to nap.
00:22:06.193 --> 00:22:26.893
<Genie Joseph> And so this dog was so tired from shaking and from the fear that he would just go in and rest, and I would just come and let him nap for 45 minutes and take him back, and then he got adopted because his name was Dante at the shelter, and it just made such a difference that he could get this deeper relaxation.
00:22:27.673 --> 00:22:30.133
<Genie Joseph> And then a family adopted him with kids.
00:22:30.153 --> 00:22:30.793
<Genie Joseph> It was wonderful.
00:22:30.813 --> 00:22:32.293
<Genie Joseph> He sleeps with them, eats with them.
00:22:32.313 --> 00:22:41.213
<Genie Joseph> It's just beautiful to see this big old scary, like the face is a sight of a basketball, and he's just a sweetheart.
00:22:41.353 --> 00:22:42.453
<Genie Joseph> He's a total sweetheart.
00:22:42.773 --> 00:22:48.913
<Michael Overlie> Well, I think most people don't even realize how they show up in their emotional states.
00:22:49.153 --> 00:22:49.473
<Genie Joseph> Right.
00:22:50.313 --> 00:22:51.353
<Michael Overlie> They know they're uncomfortable.
00:22:51.373 --> 00:22:52.593
<Michael Overlie> They know they don't like something.
00:22:52.613 --> 00:22:56.873
<Michael Overlie> They don't like something someone said, but they don't understand their own emotion.
00:22:57.513 --> 00:22:59.973
<Michael Overlie> And so this is how they're showing up, but they don't get it.
00:23:00.293 --> 00:23:00.633
<Genie Joseph> Yes.
00:23:00.873 --> 00:23:02.333
<Michael Overlie> And it's the same with the dogs.
00:23:02.393 --> 00:23:05.613
<Michael Overlie> They need different things at different times, and that's okay.
00:23:05.853 --> 00:23:06.333
<Genie Joseph> That's right.
00:23:06.353 --> 00:23:10.233
<Genie Joseph> They need different levels of stimulation or lack of stimulation at different times.
00:23:10.253 --> 00:23:17.633
<Genie Joseph> And when we work with the veterans, they don't necessarily want to talk about emotions, but if I say, let's talk about freedom of choice, do you choose the blue shirt or the red shirt?
00:23:17.993 --> 00:23:18.873
<Genie Joseph> They can deal with that.
00:23:18.893 --> 00:23:20.453
<Genie Joseph> And it's like that's a way in.
00:23:20.933 --> 00:23:30.173
<Genie Joseph> And through connecting with the pleasure of choosing something, they begin to reconnect with their true senses, which are often offline.
00:23:30.853 --> 00:23:32.493
<Genie Joseph> They can't feel what they really want.
00:23:33.113 --> 00:23:34.793
<Genie Joseph> You ask them, where do you want to eat?
00:23:34.813 --> 00:23:35.333
<Genie Joseph> I don't know.
00:23:36.313 --> 00:23:37.013
<Genie Joseph> What do you want to eat?
00:23:37.033 --> 00:23:37.433
<Genie Joseph> I don't know.
00:23:39.033 --> 00:23:39.393
<Genie Joseph> Yeah.
00:23:39.773 --> 00:23:40.173
<Michael Overlie> Yeah.
00:23:40.193 --> 00:23:41.833
<Michael Overlie> So do you want the chicken or the steak?
00:23:42.613 --> 00:23:42.913
<Genie Joseph> Right.
00:23:42.933 --> 00:23:44.333
<Genie Joseph> So let's just do two things.
00:23:44.553 --> 00:23:44.993
<Genie Joseph> Yeah.
00:23:45.013 --> 00:23:45.513
<Genie Joseph> Make it simple.
00:23:45.733 --> 00:23:47.433
<Genie Joseph> Say, do you want to eat Chinese food or Italian?
00:23:47.973 --> 00:23:53.233
<Genie Joseph> Not where do you want to eat with a person who's got chooser burnout, you just want to give them two choices.
00:23:53.793 --> 00:23:58.013
<Genie Joseph> And if there are really realistically four choices, we'll start with, let's eliminate two.
00:23:58.233 --> 00:23:59.053
<Genie Joseph> Which don't you want?
00:23:59.233 --> 00:24:01.073
<Genie Joseph> You don't want Vietnamese right now.
00:24:01.093 --> 00:24:02.193
<Genie Joseph> You don't want Thai food right now.
00:24:02.213 --> 00:24:02.653
<Genie Joseph> Okay, great.
00:24:02.953 --> 00:24:04.473
<Genie Joseph> You want Italian or Chinese?
00:24:04.533 --> 00:24:05.393
<Genie Joseph> You know, whatever it is.
00:24:05.693 --> 00:24:09.073
<Genie Joseph> You know, this is, that's, yeah, little Lucy back there.
00:24:09.993 --> 00:24:10.993
<Genie Joseph> She's boarding with us.
00:24:10.993 --> 00:24:13.833
<Genie Joseph> So she's our rescue from a reservation.
00:24:13.853 --> 00:24:16.353
<Genie Joseph> Those of you who are watching the video, we just saw Lucy walk by.
00:24:16.413 --> 00:24:18.013
<Genie Joseph> She's very, very sweet.
00:24:19.153 --> 00:24:20.473
<Genie Joseph> And it's really, you know what's really funny?
00:24:20.493 --> 00:24:29.133
<Genie Joseph> Speaking of choices, we have, all of the dogs have multiple beds in this house, aside from the fact that they also use the human beds, but they have their own beds, right?
00:24:29.153 --> 00:24:32.113
<Genie Joseph> And they're sort of size, sized for the dog or whatever.
00:24:32.413 --> 00:24:37.153
<Genie Joseph> So what's really funny is that the dogs love to choose the bed that's not theirs.
00:24:38.653 --> 00:24:44.473
<Genie Joseph> So I got this huge $100 bed for Lulu, our big 56 pound dog that we're fostering, fancy bed, right?
00:24:45.013 --> 00:24:47.133
<Genie Joseph> Who buys a $100 bed for a dog you're fostering?
00:24:47.173 --> 00:24:47.533
<Genie Joseph> I do.
00:24:47.853 --> 00:24:48.673
<Genie Joseph> So, okay.
00:24:48.693 --> 00:24:50.373
<Genie Joseph> So Lulu has this big bed, which she loves.
00:24:50.653 --> 00:24:57.993
<Genie Joseph> But Sophia, my 25 pound dog who has, I think, eight beds in the house, will often go sleep in Lulu's bed.
00:24:58.013 --> 00:25:05.373
<Genie Joseph> And Lulu will try to sleep in Sophia's little bed, which right now she's half in Sophia's little bed, which half of her body fits in.
00:25:05.393 --> 00:25:07.033
<Genie Joseph> But it's comfortable for her.
00:25:07.053 --> 00:25:07.933
<Genie Joseph> That's her choice, right?
00:25:07.953 --> 00:25:08.453
<Genie Joseph> She can choose.
00:25:08.933 --> 00:25:13.373
<Genie Joseph> And Lucy and Sophia, who are about the same size, they're constantly trading beds.
00:25:13.773 --> 00:25:21.373
<Genie Joseph> Like Lucy has this little fluffy thing from her purse and brought a little fluffy, a poofy bed, which Sophia once had and she rejected, so I never got another one.
00:25:22.693 --> 00:25:26.513
<Genie Joseph> So Lucy will go in Sophia's bed, and Sophia will go in Lucy's bed.
00:25:26.533 --> 00:25:27.973
<Genie Joseph> And it's just what they do.
00:25:28.093 --> 00:25:28.893
<Genie Joseph> It's just fun.
00:25:29.053 --> 00:25:32.553
<Genie Joseph> It would be ridiculous to try to correct that or change that.
00:25:32.613 --> 00:25:35.493
<Genie Joseph> It's really fun to let them choose their beds.
00:25:37.353 --> 00:25:37.753
<Genie Joseph> Yeah.
00:25:38.453 --> 00:25:40.973
<Genie Joseph> And so it's just little things like that, the toys.
00:25:40.993 --> 00:25:42.453
<Genie Joseph> Do you want to play with this toy or that toy?
00:25:42.513 --> 00:25:43.553
<Genie Joseph> Just give them a choice.
00:25:43.553 --> 00:25:44.193
<Genie Joseph> Let them choose.
00:25:44.213 --> 00:25:45.153
<Genie Joseph> And they can have the other one.
00:25:45.173 --> 00:25:46.833
<Genie Joseph> There's no right or wrong.
00:25:46.853 --> 00:25:47.593
<Genie Joseph> There's no loss.
00:25:47.613 --> 00:25:50.233
<Genie Joseph> Most games and human games have win or lose.
00:25:50.473 --> 00:25:51.473
<Genie Joseph> So these are win-win.
00:25:51.553 --> 00:25:53.293
<Genie Joseph> You can win this one or you can win that one.
00:25:53.293 --> 00:25:54.333
<Genie Joseph> It's not a win-lose.
00:25:54.813 --> 00:25:59.013
<Genie Joseph> But this helps them feel, oh, they get to choose which toy they're going to play with.
00:25:59.653 --> 00:26:01.153
<Genie Joseph> And I even give them a choice of water.
00:26:01.213 --> 00:26:02.833
<Genie Joseph> Like I'll have different types of water.
00:26:03.253 --> 00:26:04.533
<Genie Joseph> I'll have the filtered water.
00:26:04.553 --> 00:26:05.673
<Genie Joseph> Everybody gets filtered water.
00:26:05.973 --> 00:26:07.653
<Genie Joseph> But they also have a choice of tap water.
00:26:07.653 --> 00:26:08.593
<Genie Joseph> And you know, it's interesting.
00:26:08.613 --> 00:26:10.333
<Genie Joseph> Some people say, why do you give your dogs tap water?
00:26:10.613 --> 00:26:12.613
<Genie Joseph> Well, I put them both down and I see what they want.
00:26:12.613 --> 00:26:19.693
<Genie Joseph> And sometimes they want the filtered water, and sometimes they want the tap water, because the tap water does have some minerals that the filtered water doesn't.
00:26:20.033 --> 00:26:28.513
<Genie Joseph> And I have to just trust that they know if they need some of that good old city water, especially the shelter dogs are used to that.
00:26:28.533 --> 00:26:34.673
<Genie Joseph> Lulu will choose the city water over the filtered water most of the time.
00:26:34.933 --> 00:26:36.233
<Genie Joseph> That's okay.
00:26:36.253 --> 00:26:37.233
<Genie Joseph> I'm not going to worry about it.
00:26:37.253 --> 00:26:40.933
<Genie Joseph> I'm going to give them both choices and let them make a choice.
00:26:40.993 --> 00:26:44.413
<Genie Joseph> And I'm assuming that they're making a choice that's best for them in the moment.
00:26:44.793 --> 00:26:49.333
<Genie Joseph> And that has the respect of animal wisdom that we as humans sometimes forget.
00:26:49.353 --> 00:26:54.893
<Genie Joseph> We think that we can make all the choices for them, and we're right, and sometimes we're right, but sometimes we're not right.
00:26:55.393 --> 00:26:59.593
<Genie Joseph> And sometimes we need to let the animals show us what's the right choice for them.
00:27:00.253 --> 00:27:01.613
<Michael Overlie> Yeah, that's a huge point.
00:27:01.973 --> 00:27:04.613
<Michael Overlie> I think it makes us feel better to think that we're right.
00:27:04.753 --> 00:27:06.393
<Michael Overlie> We're doing the right thing for our animal.
00:27:06.413 --> 00:27:11.853
<Michael Overlie> But yeah, there's a lot of wisdom that they have that we can learn from.
00:27:12.113 --> 00:27:19.333
<Genie Joseph> Yeah, I had one client who was only giving her dog filtered water, and the dog stopped drinking water, and she called me and said, what to do?
00:27:19.353 --> 00:27:27.133
<Genie Joseph> And I said, try some tap water, and she was shocked that I would suggest that her pedigree dog should drink tap water.
00:27:27.493 --> 00:27:29.533
<Genie Joseph> But it was getting serious.
00:27:29.553 --> 00:27:31.413
<Genie Joseph> So I told her what to do.
00:27:31.433 --> 00:27:36.013
<Genie Joseph> We put some actually some freeze-dried liver in the tap water, and that solved the whole problem.
00:27:36.033 --> 00:27:42.573
<Genie Joseph> Just a couple little, so that water had a great scent, and it was so important to get the dog back to drinking water.
00:27:42.593 --> 00:27:50.913
<Genie Joseph> So sometimes we have to pay attention to what the dog is saying to us, that that maybe that, the filtered water was the wrong pH for her.
00:27:51.313 --> 00:27:51.953
<Genie Joseph> Do you know what I mean?
00:27:51.973 --> 00:27:59.893
<Genie Joseph> So even though it might be, quote unquote, pure, and most dogs should have that most of the time, doesn't mean that that's what they should have all the time.
00:28:00.313 --> 00:28:03.053
<Genie Joseph> And giving them the choice lets them choose what's right.
00:28:03.333 --> 00:28:08.193
<Michael Overlie> This is fascinating, because Indigo sometimes won't drink from her water bowl inside.
00:28:08.453 --> 00:28:08.813
<Genie Joseph> Yes.
00:28:09.533 --> 00:28:10.053
<Michael Overlie> Excuse me.
00:28:10.073 --> 00:28:13.073
<Michael Overlie> But she likes to go and drink from her water bowl outside.
00:28:13.093 --> 00:28:15.853
<Michael Overlie> So we say, Oh, do you need some porch water?
00:28:15.873 --> 00:28:19.753
<Michael Overlie> And she stands up and she opens the back door, and she races out and gets a drink.
00:28:20.113 --> 00:28:20.453
<Genie Joseph> Right.
00:28:20.533 --> 00:28:21.433
<Michael Overlie> It's the same water.
00:28:21.653 --> 00:28:21.993
<Genie Joseph> Yeah.
00:28:22.133 --> 00:28:22.413
<Genie Joseph> Yeah.
00:28:22.433 --> 00:28:25.713
<Michael Overlie> Well, both the same steel bowls, both the same filter.
00:28:26.553 --> 00:28:27.993
<Michael Overlie> But it's porch water.
00:28:28.413 --> 00:28:28.733
<Genie Joseph> Right.
00:28:28.753 --> 00:28:37.613
<Genie Joseph> Well, it has some sun maybe or some other weather or other scents, or who knows what it's getting from being outside porch water.
00:28:37.633 --> 00:28:39.133
<Genie Joseph> So it's the same thing with cats.
00:28:39.153 --> 00:28:46.173
<Genie Joseph> You put water down with their food and they're not interested, but you put a little bowl of water by your nightstand, and they're going to drink that.
00:28:46.553 --> 00:28:48.153
<Genie Joseph> So it could be the same water.
00:28:48.533 --> 00:28:51.973
<Genie Joseph> So sometimes we just need to let them make some choices.
00:28:52.693 --> 00:28:52.953
<Genie Joseph> Yeah.
00:28:55.133 --> 00:28:55.353
<Michael Overlie> Yeah.
00:28:56.773 --> 00:28:57.193
<Genie Joseph> Yeah.
00:28:57.453 --> 00:29:01.453
<Genie Joseph> And so I think in our next episode, we're going to...
00:29:01.553 --> 00:29:04.593
<Genie Joseph> Well, you know, I'm not positive what's our next episode, so never mind.
00:29:04.853 --> 00:29:06.573
<Genie Joseph> I won't say what the next one is.
00:29:07.013 --> 00:29:10.033
<Michael Overlie> So the next one is The Soul of an Animal.
00:29:10.313 --> 00:29:10.613
<Genie Joseph> Yeah.
00:29:10.633 --> 00:29:15.013
<Genie Joseph> Well, I think because we're out of order, that might not be our next one, but I know that's coming up soon.
00:29:15.033 --> 00:29:18.673
<Genie Joseph> So anyway, we'd love to have you on our next episode.
00:29:18.693 --> 00:29:20.613
<Genie Joseph> Whatever it is, I know it's going to be good.
00:29:21.853 --> 00:29:22.413
<Michael Overlie> Awesome.
00:29:23.033 --> 00:29:25.173
<Michael Overlie> Well, thank you, Genie, so much and everybody else.
00:29:25.193 --> 00:29:26.773
<Michael Overlie> Look forward to seeing you again soon.
00:29:26.793 --> 00:29:28.453
<Genie Joseph> Yeah, we will say Aloha for now.
00:29:28.673 --> 00:29:36.153
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00:29:36.473 --> 00:29:40.793
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